[00:00:00] Jess: Hey Josh, how was CMO Summit?
[00:00:01] Josh: It was amazing. I have so many ideas.
[00:00:03] Jess: Ooh, like what?
[00:00:04] Josh: Well, first of all, I need you to stop everything you're doing. Have we done anything with like ai, agentic, SEO? Have we used clay? I heard that you can like grab like a million different people in your persona list and start to email 'em all at once.
[00:00:16] And if you put them in these clay workflows, you can enrich them. Figure out where they work, personalize, and if you send them all at once, you only get like a 0.01% response rate, but you will get some pipeline out of it.
[00:00:30] Jess: Josh, remember when you came back from CMO Summit and you had like a bajillion ideas for me?
[00:00:36] Josh: Yeah. What's wrong with that? That's not what I'm supposed to do. Go get ideas. Make you do them
[00:00:40] Jess: well, okay. True enough. But let's talk about the CEO tendency to like. Shiny object syndrome. Right. Okay. You go to like an event.
[00:00:51] Yeah. And you come back.
[00:00:52] Josh: Yep.
[00:00:52] Jess: And you're like, are we thinking about all of these things? Yes. So first of all, I need to know like, why do CEOs do that?[00:01:00]
[00:01:02] Josh: Um. Because we're crazy. Uh, I think there's like the, the things that make good CEOs are also the things that make bad CEOs, which is there's this desire to like move really quickly, be a radical, be somewhat crazy, like you have to be a little bit wild to even like start a company and like go do all that.
[00:01:23] But it's also the thing. That makes you wanna run in a million directions at any given time. So we're just squirrels and we just see objects and run towards them.
[00:01:32] Jess: I know too, there's gotta be this. This thing where it's like we're just one moment. Yeah. Tactic thing. Campaign away from like everyone knowing who we are.
[00:01:42] Josh: Yes.
[00:01:42] Jess: And we don't know what that is, so we just need to try. Yes. All of the things.
[00:01:46] Josh: Yes. Yeah, you, the thing that's interesting is you don't have a comparison, right? Like you don't know, are you the best company in the world or the worst, right? So you go to these shows like I was at. CMO summit. And I had like five different themes [00:02:00] that I heard there.
[00:02:00] Like the first one I heard is like every CEO was like outsourcing their engineering team, uh, like nearshore offshore. And like I ran back home and I like messaged Andrew our head of engineering and I was like, we need to offshore the entire team. He was like, chill the fuck out. So like you just hear all these.
[00:02:15] Things, right? Yeah. And you're just like, oh, it must be the better way. But you have no litmus test of like what's actually working or where you should be. And so there's just this desire to be like, oh, just go do all of the things and I think you have to stop me from doing that.
[00:02:29] Jess: And you just save you from yourself.
[00:02:31] Josh: Please. Please.
[00:02:33] Jess: Okay. Well, okay. It is your job to go do those things and like come back and, and push us to like, are we thinking about this? We should have an answer for you, right? Yeah. All of us. Um. But I think what we wanted to talk about today was how do you balance that? Sometimes you're gonna come back with an idea and you're like, oh, hell yeah.
[00:02:52] We should be thinking about that. Yeah. Or we just started thinking about that, but like, what did you learn? I wanna know more. Yes. Or. [00:03:00] I don't really know if that's a great idea to think about right now and here's why. Yes. And so I wanted to talk about just like how, how I, uh, deal with that constantly.
[00:03:12] Josh: I know what you're talking about.
[00:03:15] Jess: Yes. Because I know others have the same kind of situation, right? Yeah. So. I think the important thing to start with is a really well documented strategy. Yes. Because when you come back from these events, or even like when I go to an event Right. I'm also gonna see things. Andrew, our head of engineering is going to go, you know, learn new things and come back to us.
[00:03:35] Yeah. All of us have to have this thinking of, does this fit into the strategy we have all agreed upon? Yeah. To build this company right now.
[00:03:44] Josh: So you have to set the foundation early. Yeah. But my problem as a CEO is. Like we're early stage, I can only see so far in the, in the, the future. Yeah. Right. So like I can't plan out what our strategy in 24 months is gonna look like.
[00:03:58] Totally. So just do the crazy ideas that I bring [00:04:00] back to you Please. Right. Just do your job. Just do your job. Damn it.
[00:04:07] Jess: Oh god. Okay. So documented strategy. Yeah. Um. So I think the first thing is like, have it down on paper somewhere. Even if it's just in a document. Yeah. Because what that does is it, it says it's important.
[00:04:20] Yeah. Right. If it's down on a page. Yeah. Uh, it means that it can be shared. Every new one can go look at it at any given time. Yeah. And. It should have in there. Like, here's what we're really focused on and here are the goals we're trying to reach. Yes. Because then when you come back and you're like, we need to rent an elephant and put it in Times Square,
[00:04:39] Josh: that's a great idea.
[00:04:40] Wait, we should do that. How
[00:04:41] Jess: much is that?
[00:04:42] Josh: Did they do that?
[00:04:44] Jess: I,
[00:04:45] Josh: I mean, someone will do that. Write that down.
[00:04:46] Jess: Yeah. Yeah. I can be like, Hmm, how is that going to help us get to this goal? Right.
[00:04:52] Josh: Well, and to your point. Yes. I can't see 24 months in advance, but like I do know where the board wants us to get this year.
[00:04:58] Yes. Right. Like I have these like [00:05:00] three high level goals that you can back your way into seeing if those things support.
[00:05:04] Jess: Exactly. So let's get into it. What did you see at the conference that you were like, oh, we should be doing this? Thinking about it?
[00:05:10] Josh: Yeah, there was a couple things. Um, the one that was like the most interesting to me was like everyone was talking about AI and as we were.
[00:05:19] In these, you know, breakout sessions talking about ai. There was a woman sitting in front of me that went to the open AI app on her phone to like Google the speaker and I was like, oh shit. Like people are using Google anymore. And so like I came running back to you and I was just like, we need to not rank for Google anymore.
[00:05:38] Like throw back to episode one. Yeah. Like we don't need content anymore. Like we just need to figure out how to get on the top of,
[00:05:44] Jess: yeah. How do we get the robots on our side? Yes.
[00:05:46] Josh: Yeah. They need them to know about us.
[00:05:47] Jess: Yeah. That is a wild moment. Yeah. And I actually think it's really funny that you're like, she googled us on,
[00:05:53] Josh: it's a verb now.
[00:05:54] I know. It's, it's a thing you do. I don't know. Like, and she open AIed it, like I don't Yeah. That doesn't
[00:05:58] Jess: have the same ring. It doesn't. [00:06:00] No. Fuck
[00:06:00] Josh: that.
[00:06:01] Jess: No,
[00:06:01] Josh: but no. So it's like, it's those sorts of things where it's like, I saw that. And I'm like, oh my God. Like I think the, the tendency for CEO is to like spiral, right?
[00:06:10] Yeah. You start to think about like, oh my gosh, we're putting like money into this agency, right? Yeah. And it's like, to rank for seo is SEO dead, right? Like, are people not gonna use Google anymore? And you just start panicking and you just bring all these things back and yeah. You just put all the problems on your marketing leaders' desk and say, solve this for me please.
[00:06:26] Jess: And I'm like, challenge. Accept.
[00:06:28] Josh: No. Most of the time you're like, fuck off, get outta my office. We're remote. Why are you in my office? Go back where you came from, right? You're like, I'm in Michigan. I
[00:06:37] Jess: like to fart out.
[00:06:39] Josh: Yeah.
[00:06:41] Jess: One thing you mentioned to me was, uh, an influencer. Mm.
[00:06:45] Josh: Strategy. Yes. Right? Yes.
[00:06:47] Jess: So tell me a little bit about that.
[00:06:48] What made you interested in that?
[00:06:50] Josh: Most like, crazy COO uh, CEO ideas come from like a, a dinner that's being expensed, uh, with other CEOs. And so I was, uh, [00:07:00] sitting down with a, a friend of mine, Elaine, who's, uh, the CEO of a company called Tofu, and we're like five drinks in, and she's like. Let me show you my marketing strategy.
[00:07:11] And for her it was actually pretty dope, right? She talked about how she like automates LinkedIn and all these different things, um, but they're in a slightly different stage than us, which is something that like most CEOs need to remember Yeah. Is like you're, you're looking at ideas for companies that aren't your company.
[00:07:23] And so she was like, Hey, we're doing this really cool thing with like. Content and influencers and she's like, we have, you know, 20 of these like really expensive influencers in rotation. And so I remember coming back, I think you and I had a one-on-one and I was like, Jess, I'm approving like immediately an influencer budget.
[00:07:41] We're gonna do an influencer thing. I just saw like your face, like why? Like what are you talking about? Like this is not something you should be thinking about. Like, I've already got a strategy here. And so yeah, it was like one of these things where I think I came back to you and I was just like. 20 grand.
[00:07:55] Right? Like get 20 influencers, a thousand dollars a post. Like make it happen, captain.
[00:07:59] Jess: Yeah.[00:08:00]
[00:08:03] And I was like, oops. All bury. All bury.
[00:08:06] Josh: That's a great cereal. So good.
[00:08:08] Jess: I buy it for my kids Uhhuh. And I have air quotes for people listening. I don't
[00:08:13] Josh: buy. You're doing audio? Definitely. Is it for herself?
[00:08:16] Jess: Yeah. Uh. And that's great. Like it one, it's amazing to be able to learn from other people. Yeah. Um, and we should be thinking about influencers.
[00:08:24] It's one of the best ways to grow and earn trust right now. Yeah. Um. But I think something to think about, like you mentioned, is like they're at a different stage. Yeah. Their budget's probably gonna be different than ours. Yep. Which means we then need to strategize differently. Yes. Right. And so we have to think a little bit differently.
[00:08:38] Like for instance, something we've talked about is can we find some more micro influencers? Yeah. Who have like. Fewer followers, but like really loyal followers. Yes. And they're talking about the things we want them to talk about. Yeah. Like how can we go find those people? Yes. Um, and so that's something we're considering.
[00:08:53] Yeah. Um, we're gonna get to SWAG in a totally other episode, but like, fuck yeah. We have some incredible swag. Yes. And like that is [00:09:00] part of it as well. Like, what can we actually give these people? What kind of briefs can we build? Yep. What kind of information can we give them that's going to let. Them do what they do best and create really great content for us.
[00:09:10] Josh: Yeah. Well, and I think, like you slapped me on the hand when I brought this, like influencer I did. So I've learned, you make me sound like she's the worst.
[00:09:21] No, she's great. Um, you rolled your eyes when you said that. Did I? She's great. Um, the thing that you taught me, oh, by slapping me on the hand, uh, was I think founders don't understand that. Before I brought you that crazy idea, I brought you five others and those interact with each other. Yeah. Right. Like I asked you, Hey, we need to build this like really crazy, fun brand that doesn't feel like marketing, but it is marketing.
[00:09:50] Right? And then in on the other side of my mouth, I'm like, and we need to go pay a bunch of influencers for like what feels like very fluency type content. And I think [00:10:00] that's what. Really great marketers are able to figure out, which is like, Hey, I hear what you're saying. And in premise like, yeah, influencers are not a bad idea, but you've also given me all these other priorities, right?
[00:10:12] Yeah. That they, they need to merge together, and that's why I love your idea of like, what is the. Like the hierarchy, like the, the, the goals that the CEO's really trying to accomplish. Yeah. And using those as the excuse to reject ideas.
[00:10:22] Jess: Yes, exactly. Give you some ammo to say
[00:10:24] Josh: no. Mm-hmm.
[00:10:25] Jess: But also, like you just said, like there are ways to kill two birds of one stone, right?
[00:10:29] Yeah. You, we have this great swag and you're like, what are we gonna do with this? And then, yeah. You know, we wanna do influencers and you're like, we gotta be doing influencers. And it's like, oh, could we like bring those two together? There's a really interesting play there, right? Yes. So I think there's something to be said of like.
[00:10:42] I would never want you to stop bringing me those ideas. Okay. Right. Like, yes, please. You heard it here first. Yes. Witness. Witness. Because there are intersections in those ideas that like, we may not think about alone, but like you bring them to me and I'm like, oh, remember two weeks ago you said you wanted this and now [00:11:00] that makes sense as like one program.
[00:11:02] Josh: Question though.
[00:11:03] Jess: Yes.
[00:11:04] Josh: I feel like I'm a great CEO. You are a great ceo. I like love marketing. Get it. You do
[00:11:08] Jess: love marketing. Do
[00:11:09] Josh: you think most CEOs bring crazy ideas that have intersection or do you think other marketers out there are gonna have to find ways to be way more defensive over their, like how do you say no?
[00:11:20] Yeah, to a CEO when they're being bat shit crazy.
[00:11:22] Jess: Um, you're maybe only. Man, how, okay, now I have to think of how many bosses I've had. I don't wanna go there.
[00:11:30] Josh: It's like a body count. You're like, let's give a pre Yeah.
[00:11:35] Jess: My professional body count next. Let's talk in person to today. Yes. I would say maybe 15%.
[00:11:43] Okay. Of, and I haven't always, um, reported to A CEO. Yeah. But let's say 15% of my managers Yeah. Have. Been really receptive to me saying, I don't think we should do that because Okay. If I have really good rationale,
[00:11:56] Josh: yes,
[00:11:57] Jess: there are the majority of [00:12:00] CEOs or managers, CMOs, whoever you report to. Yep. Who won't take kindly to that.
[00:12:05] Mm-hmm. Like they don't care. They just want you to go out and do it. Mm. Um, and sometimes you just have to do it. Uh, you have to kind of show them that like, this isn't gonna work, and here's why. Because now I have proof. Ugh. So I know it's tough. Yeah. And you know what? Sometimes it's like you just have to bite the bullet and really hope you'll be pleasantly surprised.
[00:12:26] Yeah. Yeah. Um, obviously they got to that point for a reason.
[00:12:29] Josh: Mm-hmm. Somehow
[00:12:33] it wasn't anything to do with brains, I can tell you that. Uh,
[00:12:37] Jess: so. My recommendation is figure out how you can do a test. Okay. If your C-E-O-C-M-O comes to you and they're like, we need to be doing this. I heard about it at Inbound. Yeah. It is. All of the cool kids are doing this thing. Mm-hmm. And we must mm-hmm.
[00:12:51] Yep. Figure out a way if you can, like, okay, let's get a small budget. Let's run a test. Let's see what happens. Yep. So then you'll have data to go either [00:13:00] way. You won't have blown, you know, weeks and cycles on trying to build a program that may or may not work. And I think the other important thing, we're gonna go back to that documented strategy is, yeah.
[00:13:10] What is gonna come off of my plate in order to, it's like an insertion order, right? Yeah. Like how are we going to make this happen? It means something else has to stop happening. Yeah. Is this more important than that? Hmm. It may be it. It may just be that like your C-E-O-C-M-O is like. It is that important.
[00:13:28] We have to do it. Yeah. You actually don't know where their pressure's coming from either, right? Mm-hmm. Sometimes it's coming from the board. Yeah. Or you know, where I was reporting to the CMO, it was coming from the CEO, right? Yeah. And they're not gonna get rid of that pressure until mm-hmm. I give them data to combat it.
[00:13:43] Josh: So first of all, every time that you tell me like, we'll try that, what you actually mean is that idea sucks, but I wanna stay employed. Here is what I just learned. Um, dang it. Good to know. Just gave away my secret. Gone. Um, do you think, like, what percentage of marketers do you think are in [00:14:00] that per that position where.
[00:14:02] They can't have those candid conversations with their managers and say like, Hey, I don't think this is a tactic that's effective. Like what? Like how broad do you think that recommendation is? Should most marketers be taking this? Like I'll try it to appease you type mentality?
[00:14:14] Jess: Uh, sadly I feel like it's.
[00:14:16] The majority of marketers have. I know it's sad. The
[00:14:19] Josh: job,
[00:14:20] Jess: we're in the wrong.
[00:14:22] Josh: We're not hiring. If we are, we'll call you.
[00:14:28] Oh God. Everyone's like, well done with this podcast. Bunch of assholes.
[00:14:34] Jess: Yeah. I think that is the feeling more often than not. Yeah. That like they come to me with ideas. I have to figure out how to make them a reality while also still. Hanging onto all the other things I have to do. Yeah. And I think that's, that's a really, that's a tough part of being a marketer.
[00:14:51] Yeah. Is like kind of putting on the brave face and like, yeah, okay. We're not curing cancer here, we're not doing anything that's like really life changing. Yep. [00:15:00] Um, but we're building something really interesting and we're really proud of our work. I think that is like something that all marketers really feel is their name is on this.
[00:15:07] And they want it to go well, and they want their manager to look good because then they look really good. Yeah. They want their CEO to look good. Right. So I do think that's the, that's the majority of marketers out there kind of having to figure out how they're going to pull all of this off. Yeah. While keeping everything that's already on their plate.
[00:15:25] Josh: How do you, so you mentioned the sort of, Hey, something needs to come off my plate to do this. How do you actually have that conversation? Right. Because that can feel, I I, I feel especially in marketing, there's this. Um, really bad notion where marketing needs to do more, more, more, more, more. Yeah. And I think for a majority of our listeners, right, if we were to generalize, like marketing is a, um, woman filled industry.
[00:15:52] Mm-hmm. Although it's not typically, uh, as represented in the executive suite as it should be, be, yes. Mm-hmm. Um, [00:16:00] and so there is this, again, I'm being very generalistic here, but like there is this notion of like, ugh. Jess just being a bitch. Right? Like she, she says she can't do this job unless she stop something else.
[00:16:09] Right? Yeah. How do you have that hard conversation saying, Hey, you've asked me to do a lot of things. If you want me to do this one, I, I have to stop something else.
[00:16:15] Jess: Yeah. Um, it's really unfortunate that all of that is like the circumstances mm-hmm. We find ourselves in. Mm-hmm. I think. You. I tell myself sometimes like, well, how would a man handle this?
[00:16:26] Yeah. Like I do have to say that to myself sometimes. Yeah. They would've no problem saying, listen, totally happy to do this for you. I do think this thing is going to have to put be put on pause. Yeah. So my recommendation is like. Come prepared with the thing. Yeah. That you think is the thing that should come off of your plate.
[00:16:42] Yeah. Or just be paused momentarily. Yeah. It might not be the answer that your CEO wants to hear. Yeah. But it is better to be prepared. Mm-hmm. Um. And to be able to like at least set their expectations that like, this thing has to stop if this other thing has to begin.
[00:16:57] Josh: Yeah. Yeah. I think that's smart. Again, [00:17:00] very generalistic, but we're just simple, right?
[00:17:02] So you just really have to break it down for us. You have to tell us, tell us what's gonna break
[00:17:05] Jess: me. Cannot do all of
[00:17:06] Josh: this
[00:17:07] Jess: work.
[00:17:08] Josh: Ads gonna be bad if we do that. Uh, like I'll be like, oh, okay. I get it now. Yeah. Uh, in worst case scenario, it's like. At least you have set yourself up for success of like, Hey, I warned them, right?
[00:17:20] Yes. I told them, here's my opinion. We're gonna go do this thing, but these other things are gonna suffer. And if that's the trade off they wanna make, that's the trade off they wanna make.
[00:17:26] Jess: Totally.
[00:17:27] Josh: Yeah.
[00:17:27] Jess: I feel like we've kind of reached the point in the episode where we stare deep into the camera.
[00:17:32] Josh: Yeah.
[00:17:32] Jess: And give marketers some positive affirmations. Just make 'em feel good. Are you ready? Let's do it. Okay. Dear marketer, your social media posts don't just get engagement. They get committed relationships.
[00:17:43] Josh: Dear marketer, when you write copy dictionaries, add new words.
[00:17:48] Jess: I think some other things that you brought back that were really, really interesting that I loved hearing about was, um, one was that you were not a believer of events and kind of trade shows and conferences.
[00:17:58] Yeah. And this one made you a [00:18:00] believer. So shout out to CO Summit. Yeah. You made judge a believer.
[00:18:04] Josh: Tell me
[00:18:04] Jess: why.
[00:18:05] Josh: Yeah. I so. I always thought, well, one events are really expensive. Yeah, right. So it's one of these like line items in the marketing budget where you can, you can compare it to other things and it's like, oh, I could do that one event, or I can run ads this month.
[00:18:19] Jess: Yeah. Right.
[00:18:19] Josh: Yeah. Or it's like, or I could like pay a whole nother salary to do that. And so I always thought, especially at our, our stage where we're early and scrappy, it's like, I'll just buy a ticket, right? I'll just like suitcase the show and like go talk to people and. Particularly, and I think this is one of those, like your miles will vary kind of thing.
[00:18:36] And like why CEOs should be careful taking candid advice. Right. That might not be applicable. What was interesting that I experienced there is like. Vector is very clearly building a brand Yeah. That people resonate with. And so like we were sitting next to other booths that like weren't getting the same results, like they weren't getting the same attention.
[00:18:57] And so it's not that like [00:19:00] I believe in events entirely. It's like, hey, I think. If you want to make events work, you have to invest in all the other parts of marketing. Yes. That make the events work.
[00:19:09] Jess: Yeah. And I think you had mentioned that too, that like people were coming up to you and being like, I've seen you guys on LinkedIn.
[00:19:15] Yes. Right. And so, okay. Two totally unrelated things. Yeah. Right. Have now built this affinity for a brand that yes, you're at an event, you're just kind of waiting around for people to come see you. Right? Yes. And people are coming up because of what we've been doing online. Yes. And they're coming to you off offline.
[00:19:29] Well, I think
[00:19:29] Josh: that goes back to like the crazy CEO stuff is like. A, hopefully you have a CEO that, uh, can at least listen, uh, to your advice because this is one of those, those moments where it's like, yes, you come back, you wanna do all these events, but you can't just go do the one thing and expect the results.
[00:19:47] Yeah. Right. Like the event was successful because of all the other stuff that you had done for the months leading up to it. Yeah. I don't think CEOs like. Understand that comp complex dimension of things. Yeah. And so they're just like, I just want [00:20:00] the results. Go, go do events, make them great.
[00:20:02] Jess: Yeah. Doesn't work like that.
[00:20:03] That's such a great point.
[00:20:04] Josh: Yeah.
[00:20:04] Jess: Okay. Third thing you brought back that I loved was customers were coming up to the vector area and like congregating and talking to each other and it felt like this little mini community Yes. Um, that I thought was really, really interesting. And that felt like how do we scale that?
[00:20:21] How do we take that and do something with it? Like Yeah. Either at another event or. Just something that we're able to do with our customers as a community.
[00:20:30] Josh: Yeah. Well, again, I think it just all goes back to like the early investments that you had made in the brand and the way it felt and the way that we treat our customers.
[00:20:38] It goes into how like Allie, our head of solutions, treats our customers. Yes. Right? Like that's the thing that like early stage founders and CEOs need to understand is like. You probably can't take any of these ideas that you're hearing at a trade show or from your friends and go implement them just like that because there's all these sort of like ecosystem and environment type things that got put into it.
[00:20:59] But [00:21:00] yeah, we had these like really cool moments where like, uh, like. Um, our marketing leader that we love over at like, clue Yes. And folks over at Sanso would like run up to us and like pull up their Slack channels and be like, look what Vector's doing for us. We were just talking about in the board meeting and it like, it almost felt like our booth became this like hangout place Yeah.
[00:21:19] For our customers. Um, and so I think that's what, what was great about you and having like a real marketer in the sea is. I think you are a filter and an interpreter of the ideas, right? I came back to you and I said like, events worked. And you're like, well, what does that actually mean? And I was like, oh, our customers came there.
[00:21:35] And it's like, oh, what you're actually saying is that like our customers resonate with our brand, our community. Yes. We should do some more stuff for them.
[00:21:43] Jess: Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Plus one for brand. Mm-hmm. Plus one for customers like Yeah, investor early. I I love the point that you made of just like, in order to have results like that in person.
[00:21:55] Yeah. There is. A multitude of things that you have to be doing Yes, [00:22:00] every single day in order to build that feeling. Yes. Out of a table and a sign Yes. At an event, right? Yes. It's not gonna do it itself.
[00:22:08] Josh: Actually, and this isn't for the podcast. I was thinking about this the other day. We should talk about this.
[00:22:12] Uh, it's, it's for the podcast. You can keep rolling. Uh, speaking of customers, like something I've been thinking about is like we should figure out how to invest more in like traveling to our prospects and doing like bringing vector to them. Yeah. Vector to go on the road. Oh. And like vector to go. It's like Applebees to go.
[00:22:28] I see little carry out boxes with a little ghost on it. Yeah. Oh my gosh. Actually. Cute. Let's do that. Okay. Done. Perfect. CEO know, just bringing wild ideas and here I am not taming it. Right. You're just like feeding into bullshit. Put, put more on my plate. That would've been perfect for you to be like, yes, but the influencer thing has to stop.
[00:22:46] Jess: Yeah. Yeah. Wait, Josh, um, what are we gonna take off of the list?
[00:22:52] Josh: Go fuck yourself. Yeah. That's awesome. How do you know, um, when CO brings crazy idea, like the one I just [00:23:00] brought to you?
[00:23:00] Jess: Yeah.
[00:23:01] Josh: Um. How do you know when to push back versus say, actually that's good. I just need more resources. Like how do you know when to turn into budget and hiring conversations?
[00:23:10] Yeah,
[00:23:11] Jess: I think that's a great idea. Goes back to that documented strategy. Yeah. I'm hearing this idea from you, which is like we saw at this event, our customers really loved hanging with us. Yeah. They like came to us. Yep. And then they really liked hanging with each other as well. Yeah. So how can we manifest that in another way?
[00:23:28] Mm-hmm. Okay. Let's go to them. Yes. Great idea. Love that. Okay. How do we make that happen? Right. And I think that's on me as your marketing leader to go back and come up with a plan. Yeah. We're not gonna solve it in the five minutes that we talk about it when you bring it to me. Yes. So love that idea. Let me go back, come up with a plan, see what that looks like, and come back to you with something to react to smart so that you can be like, yes, that's, I think that's what I was kind of thinking.
[00:23:52] Or like, oh, I hadn't thought about like that and I really like that. Yeah. Or you know, hey, I think there's this dimension that's missing that, you know, I [00:24:00] really liked about. What our customers work together, so let's try to include that as well. Yeah. And then you can start to talk about what do we need to get this done?
[00:24:07] If we like this, yeah, let's move forward. Let's try to find some, you know, freelancers or vendors or whoever are gonna help this us pull this off. It's
[00:24:16] Josh: probably the best time to ask for budget when the CEO's like super high on something. Exactly. Totally. You're like, I can do this. I just need. 50 grand more to do it every month.
[00:24:23] Yeah. And all
[00:24:23] Jess: the
[00:24:24] Josh: best time to do it.
[00:24:25] Jess: What's it gonna take me? Wait, what? How do they say that at the car dealership? What do I need to do to get you into this idea today?
[00:24:33] Josh: What You just slide like an ad budget across the table. I love that. Okay. The flip side. So we've talked about. How to convince a crazy CEO of certain ideas and how to back off of 'em.
[00:24:44] Are there times where you're just like, this is a red flag, I shouldn't work here anymore? Is like, is there points of no return where just like CEO doesn't listen at all, I.
[00:24:52] Jess: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. I think that's a great point where, okay, yep, we can try this. Uh, let me go back and, you [00:25:00] know, give you, give you a plan, right?
[00:25:01] Yeah. Um, I think red flags are like, they don't want the plan. Yeah. You are gonna do it this way. Mm. Okay, we'll try that. Yeah. Uh, but that's, you know, not very fun for someone who you. Supposedly hired for my expertise. Yeah. But okay. Yeah. That's a red flag. Yeah. Um, I think wanting you to go back with a plan, coming back with a plan and not giving you the resources to do it is another red flag.
[00:25:24] Yeah. Like, okay, you've asked for this plan, right. And I've given it to you, but now you're saying like, I don't get anything extra to do it. Like you're setting me up to fail. Yeah. Um. So another red flag. Um, consistently pushing these kinds of ideas and not allowing you to take something off your plate or giving you the resources.
[00:25:43] Those are all really big red flags, so yeah. Absolutely. A point where it's like, I can see that this is a pattern. Yeah. And probably not somewhere that's gonna value like my expertise or what I bring to the table. And maybe I should start looking.
[00:25:54] Josh: Yeah. If you leave your job and you cry at home, red flag, time to go.
[00:25:59] Yeah. Yeah, [00:26:00] yeah. Have you ever had that happen?
[00:26:01] Jess: Oh yeah.
[00:26:02] Josh: Really?
[00:26:02] Jess: Yeah. I've had jobs where I leave and I'm like, I cry because I'm sad that I had to leave. It's like a grief. Yeah. And then I've had jobs where I'm like, yes, today's the day. Like, yeah. Yeah. I get to get myself out of there. Um, that's really a hard place to be.
[00:26:19] Um, and I've been places where I've just kind of been indifferent, like I'm going through the motions. Yeah. Um. And, you know, I'm doing good work, but I'm not excited by it. Yeah. And that's an, that's another thing, right? Like, 'cause eventually that's gonna show up in the work that you're not excited. Yeah. Um, and if you have the ability to like start to look for something else, right?
[00:26:39] Yeah. That's, that's a good point to
[00:26:40] Josh: get. I used to, and maybe this is where my, my love for marketing comes from, is I was in the agency world for a little bit. Yeah. And there was definitely some clients we had where. They like marketing was a checklist, right? Yeah. It was like, did we do the blog? Did we send the newsletter?
[00:26:53] Yeah. Right. To go these people, I feel like that that culture gets set at the top with the CEO and the [00:27:00] cmo. Totally. And if you find yourself in one of those organizations where it's just like checklist marketing, like you're not gonna fulfill that creative thing that brought you into marketing.
[00:27:06] Jess: Not at all.
[00:27:07] Yeah. And. You know, I've bounced around. This is my fifth job in six years. Yeah. Right? Mm-hmm. And I, I know that that probably looks really scary on my LinkedIn, right? Where you're like, oh, this chick just stays somewhere for a year and then takes off.
[00:27:21] Josh: It's 2025. We don't look at that anymore. Okay. Thank God.
[00:27:25] I just looked at your follower account and I'm like, dire,
[00:27:28] Jess: pay this. Hold on. But, um, I think that had a lot to do with it where I was like, I just wanna find somewhere that. One, we'll bring me crazy ideas, but we can have a conversation about Yeah. Is this the right crazy idea? Yeah. Uh, do we have budget for this crazy idea?
[00:27:44] Right. Yeah. We had, we had a real, I love this idea we had where we were gonna go to inbound, we were gonna hire a creator. Yeah. To do like this crazy idea. We're gonna have 'em like cat call. Yeah. Polite cat call marketers, right? Yeah. Yeah. And we were like, that's amazing. Like one, it's [00:28:00] super vector. Yep. We were gonna have them be like, dang girl, you look like you only make data-driven decisions.
[00:28:06] Right. Like it was this ridiculous thing. So good film it, get some great social content out of it. Yep. Um, and we loved this idea, right? It was like a really interesting way where we didn't have to sponsor the event or have a booth, but we could get some really great digital content out of it. Yeah. We could make people feel like they were at the event even if they weren't.
[00:28:25] Yeah. And when we. Found out how much this creator rightfully could, could charge us. Yep. We were like, well, that's not gonna work. Yeah, right. Yeah. But the idea that we were able to just bounce that off of each other, like I really felt like I'd found somewhere I could do things like that. Well,
[00:28:41] Josh: that's kind of interesting.
[00:28:42] You're basically saying like, Hey, what I love about Vector in Josh is like crazy ideas. We can bounce things off. Yeah. That's like borderline like. What also creates the toxicity of like, oh my God, he just constantly brings me crazy ideas. We can't stay. Like, how do you find this balance between like a CEO that's like, oh my God, this is gonna be [00:29:00] fun.
[00:29:00] We're gonna like have this vibe. We're gonna bounce these back and forth, but not so much where you go home every night and you're just like, oh my God, I'm underwater.
[00:29:06] Jess: Yeah. I think you have to be brave enough to be honest. Yeah. It's hard.
[00:29:10] Josh: Yeah.
[00:29:11] Jess: Um, I, I mean, I've told, um, drew Bruer, who was my boss at Lasso.
[00:29:15] That's great. I I love Drew. Yeah. And I remember telling him one time, I think this thing we're trying to do is a waste of time. Mm. And I was really scared to tell him that. I, I was like, this is a distraction. It's distracting us. And he was so receptive to that. Yeah. He was like, you know what? You're right.
[00:29:29] Like, why are we doing this? And, and that to me was such a green flag, right? Yeah. Where it's like. I had to be honest. He understood. He could have told me no. Like, turn around, go do your job. Yeah. And I, I would've had to do it. Yeah. Um, but it felt really good to be heard, and I think you have to. Listen to those signals.
[00:29:45] Are you being heard Most of the time. Yeah. And sometimes when you're not, you have to kind of take that and be like, I don't know where that pressure's coming from. Maybe there's something he is trying to show Yeah. The CRO at his level that I just need to do this and [00:30:00] Yeah. And get it done.
[00:30:01] Josh: I think it comes down to trust.
[00:30:02] Yes. Right? Like do, do, do you trust me on, on where I'm trying to go? Do I trust you for the role that you've been hired to do? And I feel like every marketer out there. Knows the answer to whether they trust Yeah. Their leader. Like I think of you and Drew, I think of our first conversation, right? Yes. You know, immediately, I, I remember, you know, the, the dynamic between David Canell and Dave Gerhart, right?
[00:30:26] Yeah. You can, you can tell when a marketing leader is on the same page Yeah. As the executive leader. Um, yeah. And it's, yeah. If you're not in that situation, get out, girl.
[00:30:37] Jess: Yeah. Know your worth. And go somewhere that knows it too. Yeah. Leave 'em. Leave 'em. Yeah. Leave
[00:30:42] Josh: that. Liz. Dark. Swipe left.
[00:30:47] Justice was great.
[00:30:48] Jess: Such a good meeting.
[00:30:49] Josh: Can you do me a favor?
[00:30:50] Jess: Yeah.
[00:30:51] Josh: Everything that we just talked about, can you not do it? Like drop the clay, drop the automation, drop the ad, drop the influencer. This meeting could have been a podcast.
[00:30:59] Jess: [00:31:00] Oh yeah.
[00:31:00] Josh: Can we do that instead?
[00:31:01] Jess: Absolutely. This meeting could have been a podcast as a vector.
[00:31:04] Production Vector is a contact based marketing tool that reveals your best buyers on and off your site, and lets you target them with plays tailored to their exact spot in the funnel. Our site de anonymization tool is free forever. Go give it a whirl@vector.co. See you next time.