[00:00:00] Jess: Hey Josh, what's our podcast budget?
[00:00:03] Josh: Mm, class I Jack Jess. It was zero.
[00:00:05] Jess: Uh, you're gonna hate this next idea though.
[00:00:08] Josh: Oh, lay it on me.
[00:00:09] Jess: Okay, you, me, we fly to Florida. We shoot a podcast in person that has nothing to do with our product because, you know, like trust building and stuff.
[00:00:24] Josh: Hey Jess. Hey Josh. Remember that time you came to me and said we should start a podcast?
[00:00:30] Jess: I do Like it was yesterday because it was really only like four weeks ago. It basically was
[00:00:34] Josh: at least when we finalized the planning. Yes. Um, and I looked at you and I was like, yeah, that sounds like, like a great idea, except for the fact that there's like a million podcasts.
[00:00:42] And like most people don't listen to them. And like they're mostly kind of boring. Yeah. And like yeah. All that sort of stuff.
[00:00:47] Jess: Yeah.
[00:00:48] Josh: That's a really good idea you have.
[00:00:51] Jess: And I was like, here's why we should double down on it.
[00:00:53] Josh: Yes.
[00:00:54] Jess: So I think the main reason was I knew going in, and this was, you know, we talked about this even when I was [00:01:00] interviewing.
[00:01:00] Yeah. I wanted a video first content strategy. Yes. Right. That that is really the easiest way right now to get mindshare. Mm-hmm. To build trust, see the people behind a company. Yes. To be able to repurpose really easily. Yeah. Tons of social content, tons of newsletter content, tons of video content. It just really is a great place to start from much easier than the reverse, which is.
[00:01:24] Written first. Yes. And then trying to turn that into video. Right.
[00:01:28] Josh: But I thought you could just put like stock imagery of like people on the website and make it feel like very humanistic. You don't need those.
[00:01:33] Jess: Oh my gosh, that's so funny.
[00:01:35] Josh: That doesn't do it. No. Oh no.
[00:01:37] Jess: No. People wanna see the people behind the company.
[00:01:39] That's why you
[00:01:40] Josh: do the stock imagery
[00:01:42] Jess: stuff. I. There are humans in those photos. There are, those are real people.
[00:01:48] Josh: They're not AI generated at all.
[00:01:52] Jess: Okay. So, mm-hmm. Strategy. I think that was the big place we wanted to start. Yeah. Second, you're right, there are so [00:02:00] many B2B marketing podcasts out there. Yeah, some of 'em are great. Some of 'em are a little meh. Yeah. Right. But we wanted ours to like rise to the top. Yeah. And so, and really feel like our brand.
[00:02:09] Yeah. Which people we know already are really falling in love with. Like we have a lot. Yeah. We have a lot there in terms of just like affinity and opportunity. Yeah. And it's like we gotta create, it's gotta be so special. Like if we're gonna do this, it's gotta be. So different.
[00:02:22] Josh: Well, and I was with you until that point.
[00:02:23] I was like, cool, like tomorrow let's jump on a Zoom. Let's hit record and we'll like do a podcast. How did we end up $20,000 later here?
[00:02:31] Jess: I'm like, wait a second. That's not gonna cut it. Right? Yeah. I think because our brand is so different. Yeah. And we want, we need to do something equally as different as our brand and as bold and so it was like, okay.
[00:02:46] A lot of podcasts are doing this thing. We're two people on Zoom. We've been doing that since, you know the pandemic. Yep. People tolerated, you know, people were good with it for a while because it was like, yeah, this is what we have to do in order to like create this stuff. Yep. Then we tolerated it for a little while longer and [00:03:00] now everything you see in your feed is like that.
[00:03:02] Yeah. And so, you know, I think part of the idea is that you have to stop the scroll. We want to do something that feels really different. Yes. Let's do in person, right? Yes. So we're here. We're at this creator house. It's amazing. Shout out. Shout out. Super cool. Sweet fish creator house.
[00:03:18] Josh: I do this, I do boom. D em up, baby.
[00:03:22] Jess: I've literally never done that move in my life until I sat in. Your kids are gonna
[00:03:26] Josh: love that. They're gonna be like, mm.
[00:03:28] Jess: Oh my gosh. Sorry. Collin's and Emmy.
[00:03:33] Josh: Yeah, they're
[00:03:33] Jess: gonna
[00:03:33] Josh: love that. So you wanted to go for this vibe where like someone's scrolling through LinkedIn, you see all this sort of like low quality, low res podcast.
[00:03:40] Yeah. There's another one and you scroll and you're like. Those are two people actually in the same fucking room as each other. What's happening here that's different. Yeah. Okay.
[00:03:46] Jess: Right. So like bring in the vibe and then, um, there's something about just like elevating the brand by elevating the people behind the brand.
[00:03:54] Yeah. Um, I think people, we've seen this already in our LinkedIn posts where, you know, we've [00:04:00] kind of hinted at what we were doing here. Yeah. And people. Have said like, oh my gosh, I would listen to that. Right? Yeah. People really wanna hear the behind the scenes, like, what are we doing? What do we argue about?
[00:04:09] What do we talk about? Yes. What are we planning for? And so I think that was, that felt really, really good. So it was like, okay,
[00:04:15] Josh: yeah,
[00:04:16] Jess: we wanna do this thing, but like, now what?
[00:04:18] Josh: I had a. Post before we get into the now what. Yes. I had a post, I think it was the last week, where I really didn't want you to quit, so I just wrote this like really nice post about you, about how great and why you should hire like a content marketer as your marketing leader.
[00:04:32] Um, hopefully that worked and you stay a little bit longer. Cool. Still here? Yeah. Nita a bonus, but
[00:04:36] Jess: I'm here.
[00:04:38] Josh: We'll talk about it. We spent the bonus on the podcast. Uh,
[00:04:41] Jess: I'll take that. That's fine.
[00:04:42] Josh: But someone actually I'll take that. Someone actually. In, I think in my post I wrote something along the lines of like, our one-on-ones are like insane.
[00:04:49] It should be a podcast. And like in the comments, people were like, can you make this a thing? Yeah, yeah. But that wasn't like, we didn't start there. No,
[00:04:57] Jess: we did not.
[00:04:57] Josh: How did we get here? [00:05:00]
[00:05:00] Jess: So we first came up with this actually a good idea for our show. Yeah. Uh, we were calling it Funnel Cake. Oh
[00:05:12] so dumb.
[00:05:13] Josh: If this whole like, company thing doesn't work out, choir, we're gonna do the choir.
[00:05:17] Jess: Excellent. Yes. Yes. I've always wanted do like gospel. Yes. Just gospel music all the time. Just, um, where was I? Okay. We had, yes. Aww. Podcast. Caramel cake. Okay, so we had this great name. We had this idea where the first episode was gonna.
[00:05:35] Kind of talk about this observation you and I have made. Yeah. And really a big reason for why you started Vector, which was things are really shifting in marketing. Yeah. There's kind of this old way of thinking of like gating stuff. Yeah. And you know, trying to understand where whole accounts are. Yep.
[00:05:52] And leads, leads, leads, right? Mm-hmm. Like just anything for a lead. Yep. And there's kind of this new way, which is like. [00:06:00] Don't gate anything. Yep. Give it all away for free so that you're top of mind whenever somebody thinks they need you as a solution. Yep. Um, we now have this idea of contact based marketing, so like mm-hmm.
[00:06:12] You can actually know the people that are actually going to make the decisions, tailor your marketing to them. Right. So there was this kind of, this. Old and new. And that was gonna be the first episode of like, what has been happening, what we see on the like very, very close on the horizon. Yeah. Like it's the iceberg.
[00:06:27] We're about to crash into it. Bye-bye. Titanic lady throws the necklace over the thing.
[00:06:33] Josh: Spoiler alert. For those of us that haven't finished it
[00:06:34] Jess: sinks
[00:06:35] Josh: what? Oh my God. Uh. That sucks. Right? I was bing that later.
[00:06:41] Jess: Okay, well now, you know, but so like that was save you three hours.
[00:06:43] Josh: Damn. Uh, I just wanted to watch the car scene.
[00:06:47] Uh, that's the best part. That was the best part. Um, it was a good idea. Like I really liked it. Yeah. But every time I got on a call with you, you looked. Miserable. I
[00:06:57] Jess: know we started outlining the rest of the episodes. Yeah. And it was like [00:07:00] each one was gonna be a different, uh, thing that you needed. Yeah.
[00:07:04] Right. In order to accomplish kind of this new way of marketing. Yeah. Uh, transparency, trust. No friction. Right? Yeah. We're gonna talk about that and every time we started outlining it, yeah. It kept coming back to the product. Mm-hmm. Like, it just felt like a really big infomercial, even though we were really consciously trying not to make that happen.
[00:07:23] Yes. It didn't feel good. Yes. And you could tell
[00:07:25] Josh: Yeah. Like it was like you, it was this unspoken thing where it's like we would, we kind of were like, all right, this is the idea. We have to play into it. And we would sit down and we would like write content or you would write content, and then we would review it together and it was just like, ugh.
[00:07:37] It's just something doesn't feel right about this. Yeah. Like, it's
[00:07:39] Jess: okay. It's not. Wrong. Yeah. It just doesn't feel like us. Yeah. And, and again, it just kept feeling like it was a, a shorthand for like what we were doing. Yes. Um, as a product. Yes. Not as A-A-C-E-O and a a marketing. Yeah.
[00:07:55] Josh: It didn't pass like this sniff.
[00:07:57] Right. It wasn't something that we're like, would we listen to this ourselves? Yeah,
[00:07:59] Jess: [00:08:00] exactly. Yeah. And so there was a point, I think, you know, uh, about. Nine days before we were set to start recording. Yep. All of this. And I came to you and I was like, Josh, um, this, I, I gotta kill this. Mm-hmm. Right? I was like, cool,
[00:08:15] Josh: cool, cool, cool.
[00:08:15] Cool, cool, cool.
[00:08:17] Jess: Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Yeah. Um, and I, I think you, you had so much empathy, you were just like, okay, all right. Well, like, what do you need me to do? And I was like, I think what I need to do is I just need to go away for like 24 hours Yeah. And come back to you with an idea. Yeah. Like, I, I just, I need to go away for a while.
[00:08:32] Right? Yep. And so, like, I. I spiraled that day. And you were on a plane. I
[00:08:35] Josh: was on a plane, yeah. I'll never forget, like I, like, I, I was trying to be empathetic, but like going back to like episode two, right. I'm like, oh my God, we have all these other things we need to do. Right? Jess is asking for 24 hours to go like, figure her shit out.
[00:08:49] Yeah, right. I'm like, oh my God. Like we're putting a lot of money into this thing in nine days. Like, are we gonna figure it out? But I got on a plane and I. I remember when I left Drift, there was a woman that I loved [00:09:00] working with. Her name was Maria, and she, she and I were texting, uh, like a, a year or so back, and she said something to me that was like, really interesting that stuck with me.
[00:09:08] She basically said like. I work from home and I feel selfish, not only, uh, to my work, but also my children because like the commute between my home office and my children's playroom is like not enough time for me to like catch up and like, like disconnect between these two things. And so I. You were over there spiraling and I was on this plane thinking about this comment and I was like, you know what would be cool is like instead of having a podcast that's like a self-fulfilling promotion about what we do.
[00:09:36] Yeah. Like what if we had something that was this like. 30 minute like separation where it's like, it's kind of work, but it's kind of unhinged and it's kind of fun. Yeah. It feels like you're sitting there with friends and like I sent you that message and like at the same time you were typing. Yeah. And you're like, I'm feeling the same way.
[00:09:53] Yes. And you eventually got to this.
[00:09:55] Jess: We did.
[00:09:56] Josh: Yeah.
[00:09:56] Jess: And part of what I was doing as you were thinking about that comment was, [00:10:00] I. Texted some very good marketing friends. Yeah. Um, shout out to Natalie Taylor and Chelsea Castle who like saved me here because I was like, if you hypothetically could listen to a marketing leader and her CEO talk.
[00:10:15] On a podcast. Yeah. What would you want to hear them say? Mm-hmm. And the, my first reaction when I got their text back because it was like, I wanna hear about the mistakes and I wanna hear about details. Like, how are you doing this? How are you thinking about this? And I was like, that is not the answer I wanted.
[00:10:28] Yeah. Like, I need the thing. Yeah. Like what is the thing, right? Mm-hmm. And the more I sat down with that comment, I was like, no, wait. That is it Like that is what our one-on-ones are.
[00:10:38] Josh: They are, yeah.
[00:10:39] Jess: And and we have said before, yeah, like in our one-on-one meetings we were like, we should record this. Like man, this is The energy's so fun.
[00:10:46] Yeah. We're like laughing and there's like crazy batshit ideas. Yeah. That like may or may not work, but we're like, we're brave enough to try it and find out. Yes. And I was like, people would wanna listen to this. Right. Yeah. And I think that kind of came full circle. Yes. [00:11:00] And so that got me really excited and I, I just started like in a doc and I was like, okay, this is the idea.
[00:11:05] It's like we're dropping you in our one-on-ones. Yep. We're gonna tell you about all the things that we talk about, so Cool. And think about, and. Each episode, and again, Seinfeld, I mean like life, everything just comes back to Seinfeld. Right. And it's like, yeah. It's a show about nothing. It's a show about nothing.
[00:11:19] It's a show about just like our day-to-day shit. Yep. But like each episode I started to write them out and, and this isn't even what first crossed my mind. Yeah. Was these would be the titles. But it was like, okay, the first one is like, is like, you know, Jess wants to bring on an agency. Yeah. That's the first topic.
[00:11:33] Okay. The next one is Josh goes to. Um, a, a trade show. Yeah. And he comes back with all these crazy ideas. Yeah. Okay. That's the second one. We'll figure out the title later. And then I realized like, no, that's the title. You are
[00:11:42] Josh: the titles. Yes. Yeah. Yes. That's
[00:11:44] Jess: what people wanna hear about, right? Yes. And so we started coming up with like, okay, yeah.
[00:11:47] That these are kind of the eight things we're gonna talk about this season. Yeah. And, and the best word about this is like, you and I are just going continue to work Yes. And come up with new stuff. And they're all relatable. These are all things Yes. [00:12:00] That a marketing leader and their CEO have to discuss and strategize and talk about.
[00:12:04] Yeah. The whole time.
[00:12:05] Josh: Well, and what's the book? I'm one of those people that like doesn't read books, but I quote books as if I had Same.
[00:12:10] Jess: Oh yes.
[00:12:11] Josh: I just read the cliff notes and it's like, hmm. Yeah. It's such a good book. Isn't there a book about like a purple elephant horse cow? I don't know. Apparently looking at your face, you don't know what I'm talking about either.
[00:12:21] I read there, but for those of you out there funny books as you. There's some thing I've heard about, totally read the book, um, in marketing where it's just like, you don't remember most things, but like, you remember if you saw like a purple cow Cow. I think it's a cow cow. I think you said this
[00:12:34] Jess: to me in his cow.
[00:12:35] Josh: Yeah. And I've totally made up. I think it's a cow. The comments will let us know. They're so
[00:12:39] Jess: smart and well read.
[00:12:40] Josh: I read a lot books. Um, but it's like, that's what was really interesting about like the creative process you went through is like. Like, it almost felt like we spent so long trying to fit into the mold, which is like, what is the tactical advice that we can give people?
[00:12:53] And like if you go on LinkedIn, that's what everyone is, is like, here's the 23 things that like chat, GPT, let me do with clay today. Right? And instead you're just like, [00:13:00] what if we just opened the door to us yelling at each other about the crazy shit that we're doing?
[00:13:05] Jess: Yeah.
[00:13:05] Josh: Brilliant.
[00:13:06] Jess: What if I just. Gave away all our secrets.
[00:13:08] Yeah.
[00:13:08] Josh: Don't love that part.
[00:13:10] Jess: I like snuck. That was in the fine part. Yeah,
[00:13:12] Josh: that was, yeah, that was really, that was like in white font on a white document. Yeah. The old school, like SEO way uhhuh. Yeah,
[00:13:18] Jess: exactly. So I think that was really exciting once we were like, okay, this is it. We, we have it figured out now.
[00:13:25] Yeah. The next step was finding the right title. Yeah. And that felt really important because here's the thing, I. You say, don't judge a book by its cover. We don't really read books, so it doesn't matter. We don't do that. I only look at
[00:13:37] Josh: the cover.
[00:13:39] Jess: That's the only thing I can go by. Right. Same with podcasts.
[00:13:43] Yeah. True. Right? You look at the title, you look at the cover and you're like, yeah. Instantly. It's the same thing is going to a website. Yeah. You know instantly if that's gonna be worth your time or not. Yes. And so it was like, okay, we need this title to feel so smart and fun and clever. Yes. And it has to feel.
[00:13:59] It [00:14:00] has to give you the idea of like, what's the show about? Okay, we're dropping you into our meetings, right? I kid you not. I went, I mean, this was a good almost 24 hours of me. Thinking of ideas. And I will tell you, Claude AI has been a great brainstorm partner on this. Really? Yes. So I sat down and I was like, here are some title ideas I'm thinking of.
[00:14:23] Help me come up with more like this. That's smart. And then it would gimme a big list and I'd be like, okay, these are my three favorite. Yeah. But I want them to be more unhinged.
[00:14:30] Josh: Tell me more about that part. Yeah, because like, I. I've tried to use just generative AI for creative stuff.
[00:14:36] Jess: Yeah.
[00:14:37] Josh: And I feel like maybe I'm not prompting it right.
[00:14:40] Yeah. 'cause I always get like the, like the marketing podcast, the 1 0 1 2, like lead generation, like it always gives me really shitty ones. How'd you get, like, I saw your list. There were hundreds on there and they were all good. So you're whispering some shit to chat GBT that I'm not,
[00:14:55] Jess: yeah. I'm getting pretty good at prompting.
[00:14:56] Yeah. And it's all in the prompt. Yeah. Um, the thing I think I used to get [00:15:00] scared of is like, uh. If I prompt chat GBT or clot or whoever you use. Mm-hmm. One time, and then I do it another like. There's, do you ever, have you ever seen that movie? Um, multiplicity? Yes. Okay. Yeah. Michael Keaton clones himself.
[00:15:14] Yes. And then he clones a clone. And the clone of the clone is a total idiot, right? Yes. Yeah. Best part of the whole movie. Yes. Yep. And I was always afraid of that. Like, if you get too many branches out, is it gonna like. Schizophrenic like Right. And like the ideas are so like out of left field, you can't even read it anymore.
[00:15:31] Can we
[00:15:31] Josh: make that face, you've just made the cover of the podcast, please God.
[00:15:34] Jess: No. No.
[00:15:37] Josh: Yes. They just, you were worried it was just gonna like go off the rails. Yeah. That's
[00:15:41] Jess: how you have to approach it. Okay. So I think you do have to be okay with like layering some prompts, right? Yeah. You, it's kind of like a little bit of a, like a carrot on a stick, right?
[00:15:51] Yeah. And you're kinda like, just get a little closer. Okay. A little closer. Okay. And so I think the idea was, okay, here's some of my favorite titles so far that I've come up with. Gimme more like this.
[00:15:59] Josh: Okay. [00:16:00]
[00:16:00] Jess: Okay. These three that you just gave me Yeah. Are pretty good. Yeah. Gimme more like that.
[00:16:05] Josh: That's cool.
[00:16:05] Jess: Okay. I want them to be more unhinged. Mm. Okay. Now here's some more. Ooh, that one's pretty interesting. Okay. Let's feed that back in. Right? Yeah. So I think the idea is it's gotta be more of a conversation. Yep. What got me to. Uh, this meeting could have been a podcast. Mm-hmm. Was, you know, we were really circling around this idea of we wanted it to feel like you just dropped into our meetings.
[00:16:25] Yeah. It's just a conversation. Yeah. You get the idea that like, that's kind of what it's gonna be about before you've ever listened to it. Yep. And I prompted it. To say like, can you give me ideas where like, you're actually talking about the meeting itself? Mm-hmm. Like it could, it should be self-referential.
[00:16:39] Yeah. And that was one of the things that spit out. And I was, and, and I immediately was like, that's it right there. That's
[00:16:46] Josh: so interesting. Yeah. Well, and what I thought was interesting about like your creative process when you clued me into it, 'cause I wasn't part of it, I just, I was like, go do some shit.
[00:16:54] You weren't playing, do
[00:16:55] Jess: the cool
[00:16:55] Josh: whatever. I was just like on the golf. Course, right. Doing CEO stuff. Um, [00:17:00] founder mode. Right. This found Yeah. Founder mode on the golf course that, um, you, you were like kind of keyed into two things. There was, there was this meeting, could have been a podcast, and then there was some more like generic ones, like the one-on-one or something like that.
[00:17:15] Yeah, yeah. And what I thought was interesting is like you used AI to sort of get you in the right direction, but ultimately like a human had to come back in there. 'cause you were asking questions about like. If it's the one-on-one, like is there a semicolon? Is that gonna be hard to search? Are there other podcasts already like this?
[00:17:30] Like you eventually had to come back in there Yeah. And sort of like get the finish out. The creative effort. Effort, totally.
[00:17:35] Jess: And I had to be the one to recognize it was good or not. Yes. I think that's something that actually really scares me about ai. Yeah. And like incoming marketing talent. Yeah. Is like, I have worked for 20 years.
[00:17:46] To really hone the craft and understand what's good and what's not. Mm-hmm. And they're gonna have to figure out their own way with a cheat code like ai Yeah. To figure out what's good and what's not. Yes.
[00:17:58] Josh: Yeah. Um,
[00:17:58] Jess: and so the, the [00:18:00] really, really good marketers that are in kind of this next wave and generation of marketers coming up.
[00:18:04] Yeah. This is a total tangent, by the way. No, I like
[00:18:06] Josh: it though. Yeah, it
[00:18:06] Jess: is. Um, they're the ones who are really going to study great content Yes. And understand what great looks like. Yes. So that they aren't just using AI to. Create for creation's sake. Yes. They're using it to make theirselves themselves better.
[00:18:19] Yeah. I'll
[00:18:19] Josh: stay on, stay on this tangent with you just because I like it for a second. Like, I was thinking about this the other day. I was actually returning home from, uh, actually CMO Summit, and I was going down the escalator at the airport and there was a big cla like billboard. Oh yeah. Uh, coming down the, the stairs and it.
[00:18:35] It was like clawed on one side and it was like a 30 by 70 foot billboard in the airport. Wow. And then on the other side, it was just like great ai, like that's all it was just the word great ai. And I was just thinking to myself like copywriting for print. Is so different than designing for digital, right?
[00:18:54] Yeah. You don't use drop shadows, all this sort of stuff. And so there is that element of needing a human that's trained [00:19:00] in these things Yeah. To, to figure it out.
[00:19:01] Jess: Totally. And that, that was the other thing was like, there were a couple we really liked, uh, something about like the one-on-one, um, that felt really interesting.
[00:19:10] There's 17 podcasts out there. Yeah. You know, there were, there were only, there was only like one that spelled it. The number and the colon and the number. Yeah. Yeah. But then when I started looking into like the different spellings and like what are the different ways people are gonna search for this?
[00:19:23] Yeah. There were too many. Yeah. And it was like, no, out of the question, we cannot get lumped in with that group again, going back to the idea that we wanna stand out so much. Yes. So once we land out on this, it just felt like, okay, this is it. And now we can go in. Yeah. And we can really outline these episodes and, and be really excited about it.
[00:19:39] Hey, Josh. Yeah, I think we've reached the part of the show where we look dead straight into the camera, awkwardly it's my favorite, and deliver positive affirmations to marketers. Let's do it,
[00:19:49] Josh: Josh.
[00:19:50] Jess: Dear marketer, when you repurpose content, the original piece gets jealous.
[00:19:55] Josh: To your marketer when you launch a campaign, your competitors have emergency [00:20:00] meetings, so should everyone just go start a podcast every CEO just have a podcast?
[00:20:04] Jess: Not necessarily. Yeah. Um, I think, again, the market's really saturated. If you're gonna do it, you have to be willing to invest and do something really different. Yeah. Um, you could also just sit down and do some video, like I think, I think video. First strategy is still really important this day and age.
[00:20:20] Yes. It doesn't always have to be a podcast. Yeah. Um, I think there was, there's something for our audience. Marketers love a good podcast. They love something different. Yes. And I think that made sense for our audience.
[00:20:31] Josh: That I think was the big thing and that I appreciated, again, going back to like, if you wanna do this as a marketer, how to convince your CEO, how to convince your founder make this investment is you didn't just say, oh, I think this would be a good idea.
[00:20:41] We should go do this. You brought it back to like, Hey. There's this mission, uh, going back to our previous, are we on episode three right now? Are we on three? So it might have been two. I don't, I don't know. But we talked about like tying back what you are doing Yes. To the CEO's initiatives and what they're going after.
[00:20:56] Um, right. Like a podcast as a standalone idea. It's like, okay, [00:21:00] maybe, right. Like it's not gonna tie back as close to pipeline as like a ad will or something like that. Correct. But you did this great job of basically positioning like, Hey. If we wanna win our audience, they're marketers. They feel like this, they need this.
[00:21:13] Right. Like ev all of that sort of science went into this creative asset. Yeah. Um, which made it a lot easier for me to go stomach. Like the, yeah, we're gonna go put this money into it 'cause it's gonna push these goals.
[00:21:23] Jess: Yeah. I think for us a big goal is brand.
[00:21:27] Josh: Yeah.
[00:21:27] Jess: Building brand, building trust. I think this.
[00:21:29] Podcast. Fingers crossed. It's gonna help us do that, right? Like
[00:21:33] Josh: subscribe. Yes. Love it. Um, so how are you? How the hell are we gonna measure this? Where's my ROI Jess, where's my pipeline?
[00:21:41] Jess: Damn it, Josh. Just watch. Storms
[00:21:45] Josh: Out. Hits 10,000. Camera done with this. This sucks. Just kidding. We love it. Creator House.
[00:21:55] Jess: Oh my gosh. Okay. How are we gonna measure this? Yeah. Okay. So there's a lot [00:22:00] of things to measure here. One, uh, I think are the obvious ones, right? Yeah. We want to see are people listening? So we're gonna look at, uh, downloads and views on YouTube. Yep. Um, but I think maybe some of the less obvious are the more important.
[00:22:15] Mm-hmm. So there's something that I have coined called the repurposing multiplier.
[00:22:19] Josh: Trademark,
[00:22:20] Jess: yeah.
[00:22:22] Josh: Wait, say it again? The repurposing. Repurposing
[00:22:24] Jess: multiplier. Reping multiplier. Love that. What the fuck? Love that for you. What the hell is it? Mm-hmm.
[00:22:30] Josh: Sounds good. So
[00:22:31] Jess: the repurposing multiplier is this idea that your repurposed pieces actually work harder to get engagement.
[00:22:37] And impressions than the original piece. Damn. Okay. Yeah, I like that soundbite, cliff.
[00:22:47] So the idea is that those are the pieces that draw someone in. Yeah. Right. And they're gonna get more eyeballs just because in nature you're probably gonna use them in social. Yeah. Or in an ad. Yeah. Uh, to bring people in and get people to understand [00:23:00] what you're actually talking about on this show. Uh, you would use a really good soundbite or clip that might get someone really curious about what is the rest of this thing about.
[00:23:09] Right? Yeah. And so the idea is that the stuff that you're gonna repurpose actually draws people into the full Yeah. Episode. That also means it's gonna have an increased engagement rate. Yep. And impressions, so. What I like to measure is the difference between those two things. Yeah. So some of the best, uh, programs I've seen have gotten like 116 x Wow.
[00:23:29] On the repurpose content over the, uh, the original kind of full piece. Wow.
[00:23:34] Josh: Yeah. And I think that's also something you can bring to your leader and say like, Hey, it, we're not just doing a podcast, right? Yes. It's not like there's gonna be eight episodes and people are gonna listen on Spotify or whatever.
[00:23:44] It's like, Hey, this is actually gonna power, like. Are organic are, yeah. We're gonna do some paid media with it. Yep. Right. Like there's so much more that you're getting out of it than just the one investment.
[00:23:53] Jess: Yeah. It checks a lot of boxes. Yeah. It's, it's thought leadership.
[00:23:56] Josh: Mm-hmm.
[00:23:56] Jess: It's this repurposing idea.
[00:23:58] It's being able to [00:24:00] get people to understand who we are. Yeah. In this company. Right. Yeah. Um, it's not really
[00:24:04] Josh: a selling point, but it's for me, you like speak for yourself. I rock.
[00:24:11] Jess: Another thing that I really excited to measure is mentions of this show in. Sales calls. Mm. So Mark Lowry, start putting this on your little, whatever you do.
[00:24:22] Yeah.
[00:24:22] Josh: People who's Mark sales. If you wanna buy some vector, call him. Buy some vector. Yeah. If you wanna buy some vector. Sounds like a Dr. Buy sell vector sounds like a drug to you. I'm just like vector. Call Mark. He's a nice Irish man that will sell you some vector. He's lovely. And he'll sell you
[00:24:37] Jess: some vector, um, interest.
[00:24:39] So
[00:24:39] Josh: are you gonna measure that like we, um. We're early stage, we wouldn't have like gong, but I imagine someone's a little bit later stage could like go use gong for this. Yes. We, we love like Udi over at Gong. Um, but like we have like a knockoff generic version of that right now. Yeah. Uh, so you're gonna look in there and see like, are people mentioning that?
[00:24:56] I'm
[00:24:56] Jess: gonna set up a little alert that has the name of this podcast or the word [00:25:00] podcast.
[00:25:00] Josh: That's cool.
[00:25:01] Jess: Right. And see how many times this gets me gets mentioned. Yeah. Because if that's something that's bringing people in.
[00:25:05] Josh: Yeah,
[00:25:06] Jess: we're gonna blow this bitch up.
[00:25:07] Josh: Blow this bitch up. That's actually when Jess slid this across my desk.
[00:25:11] It was like, uh, ask budget for a podcast goal. Blow this bitch up. Yeah. So that was like approved. Yeah.
[00:25:17] Jess: That we're gonna get that KPI into HubSpot?
[00:25:20] Josh: Yes. Yeah. Just, just a dashboard called the, did we blow this bitch up? Dashboard? There's no answer.
[00:25:26] Jess: It's just yes or no.
[00:25:30] Josh: Wait, so question around measurement. Yeah. I was filling out a form the other day and I was thinking of you. Okay. Which is like the least flattering thing I can say. I was like, wow, this form. Oh my God. Thank you. God, these fields are so jazz. But I was filling out a form. And the last question on any demo submission mm-hmm.
[00:25:46] Is where did you hear For about us? Yeah, like where'd you come from and. I, I was like in the dropdown trying to find other Yeah. Because I was just like, I just don't want to read through all these. And I clicked other and a little text box came up. Yeah. And it like, tell us what other is. And I was like, oh, I'll just pick one of the other [00:26:00] ones.
[00:26:00] Um, that, that box. Feels like a CEO's fault, right? It felt like some CEO was like, listen, bitch.
[00:26:10] Jess: Yeah.
[00:26:12] Josh: Probably those exact words,
[00:26:14] Jess: most likely. They
[00:26:15] Josh: basically said like, Hey, listen, like we need to be able to measure everything that we do. Yeah. Um. Do you feel like you need to measure everything that comes outta this podcast?
[00:26:24] Jess: No.
[00:26:25] Josh: Good.
[00:26:25] Jess: Not at all.
[00:26:26] Josh: Yeah,
[00:26:26] Jess: I'm, I'm working on vibes here, baby. All vi vibe.
[00:26:29] Josh: Marketing. Tm. Tm.
[00:26:31] Jess: Although we didn't do that. We didn't try, we somebody else did, so we don't wanna get trouble. Oh, okay. Sorry. I dunno. Not tm.
[00:26:38] Josh: Okay.
[00:26:39] Jess: So I think it's important, it's important to measure the things that are. I'm going to show you that there's some impact, okay?
[00:26:47] I am not going to delude myself to think that we're gonna be able to. Point to every single person who ever heard this Yeah. Or didn't hear this and know exactly how it impacted our business. Yeah. That's just impossible to do. [00:27:00] Yeah. And so we shouldn't wrap ourselves, you know, in knots trying to figure that out.
[00:27:04] Yeah. If we can see signal Yes. That there's having some Im that it has some impact on the business that people are listening. Yeah. That they're interested. They mention it every once in a while in a sales call. Yeah. That feels really good. Yeah. Right. Yeah. We're getting good. Engagement on LinkedIn? Yes.
[00:27:20] People are sharing the episode. We're seeing downloads go up. Yeah. Uh, we're seeing people posting, these are my new favorite podcasts and we happen to be in them.
[00:27:28] Josh: Yes.
[00:27:29] Jess: All that signal is great. Yeah. We should keep going.
[00:27:31] Josh: Yeah. And I feel like this is something I had to learn the, the hard way, right? Like if the goal for this podcast is for us to help marketers understand their crazy bosses, right?
[00:27:39] Like the, the journey that like most. It going back like the victors often write history on like how a company was formed. Right. If you go ask David Kenel, like how Drift was, was formed, he was like, one day I just woke up and realized like marketers needed a different way for businesses to buy from businesses.
[00:27:56] Like that wasn't the case at all. Like we pivoted for like two years before we figured out [00:28:00] that we should like do a chat bot. Yeah. The same for Vector, right? Yeah. It's like we were pivoting, we're trying to figure things out and so it's so inherent. As a founder and a CEO to wanna measure everything.
[00:28:10] Yeah. 'cause you've, you've got so much scar tissue on the things that didn't work. Yeah. And so you just assume every like calorie that we burn at the company has to go towards some like ROI generating thing. And like if we could clip anything out of this podcast and like give it to a marketer is like, you have taught me, that is not the case.
[00:28:26] Like so much of Vector success is on things we cannot measure. Yeah. And we'd be a very different company if we only invested in things we could.
[00:28:34] Jess: Absolutely. And I don't think people would care for us as much or, or we wouldn't be having this feeling of like, Ooh, they're doing something really special over here.
[00:28:42] Right, right. Because I think we're, we're kind of not throwing that to the wind because measurement is important. Yeah. But. It's not the end all, be all. Mm-hmm. And things like this are also important. Yes. Right. And you have to be able to do kind of both sides of that coin together. Yeah. To really make the impact that.[00:29:00]
[00:29:00] Stands out in the market. Yeah.
[00:29:01] Josh: It's a, it's like a long term measurement is the goal, right? Like, um, you're a runner. I'm clearly not, whatever, but like, it's like when you wanna go train for a marathon, right? If you go out and go for a single run, like you can't measure the impact of that single run.
[00:29:17] Correct. Yeah. Right. But when you start to add 'em up over and over again, you're like, oh, I'm going further, I'm going faster. Yes. Like I'm, I'm training ultimately for this. Yeah. That's what it feels like you have to do in marketing. And guess
[00:29:26] Jess: what? You're gonna have bad runs.
[00:29:27] Josh: Yes. You're gonna go
[00:29:29] Jess: out and feel like crap one day.
[00:29:30] Yep. You're not gonna finish it. Yep. You're gonna cramp up and have to turn around and walk home.
[00:29:34] Josh: Mm-hmm. You're gonna try new shoes, they're not gonna feel good. Right? Yep. Mm-hmm. It's the same thing
[00:29:37] Jess: with marketing.
[00:29:38] Josh: Yeah.
[00:29:38] Jess: And if you base. Everything off of that one bad run, that one not great ad. Yep. That one campaign that kind of flopped.
[00:29:46] Josh: Yes.
[00:29:47] Jess: And again, go back. Okay. Let's go back to the running thing.
[00:29:49] Josh: Yeah.
[00:29:49] Jess: Could have been the thing you ate. Yeah. It could have been that you didn't get great sleep the night before. It could have been the weather. Yeah. Like there's so many variables. Same thing. Yes. There's so many variables. Your post could have flopped because everybody [00:30:00] was at an event and they don't care about you because they're at inbound, right?
[00:30:03] Yes. Like just, you have to think about all of the things that go into a successful program Yes. That you don't control. There's so many. Mm-hmm. And so how do you measure that? Right. If you can't measure that, why are we trying to measure. Everything.
[00:30:16] Josh: Exactly. And I, and I think CEOs often have a knee jerk reaction to things, and I think just as humans, we tend to remember the negative more than the positive.
[00:30:27] Totally. Right. Like I always look at Yelp and I'm just like, most people go to Yelp when you've got something bad to say. Yeah. Right. And it's the same thing with marketing. It's like, oh, one bad ad. And all of a sudden the CEO's like, we're not doing any more paid spend. Yeah. It's just like, really? Yeah.
[00:30:39] Right. Like it's a, it's a marathon, not a sprint.
[00:30:42] Jess: Totally.
[00:30:42] Josh: Yeah.
[00:30:43] Jess: Okay. That being said, yeah. I want you all to download this every time it comes out.
[00:30:48] Josh: Please,
[00:30:48] Jess: please. My job depends on it.
[00:30:51] Josh: I need to actually show ROI on this. I know we said that we shouldn't measure ROI, but we put a lot of money into this.
[00:30:56] Please mention, fill out our forms and tell us that you came from this. [00:31:00]
[00:31:00] Jess: Oh, actually I wanted to talk about that real quick. Yeah. That form thing. Yeah. So, uh, that's a, that's a hard like. Balance to strike. Yeah. It is really important and really interesting for a marketer to know where someone came from.
[00:31:11] Yeah. So it's really, really helpful I think because we market to marketers. Yeah. We're gonna probably get more, um, accurate answers Yes. Than most people. Yes. Marketers are the best at telling you like yes. They want you to have the attribution. Yes. They know that that is a pain. Yes. So they'll come to the meeting prepared with that very specific information.
[00:31:30] Yes. I listened to episode three. Right.
[00:31:34] Josh: Like give you like the clip like at minute 13. Yeah.
[00:31:37] Jess: Yeah. It's what hooked me and I signed up. Right.
[00:31:40] Josh: Love that.
[00:31:40] Jess: Marketers are great at that. Yeah. Maybe that's a good idea for us to have. Yeah. Other industries, other verticals, maybe not so much because they don't understand how important that attribution is.
[00:31:50] Yeah. And. People lie on those things. They don't even mean to. Yeah, they can't think of how they thought of you. Yeah. They think it was Instagram, but [00:32:00] really it was a LinkedIn post that somebody when in their network Yeah. Commented on and they saw it and it was of interest in them. Right. Yeah. Like people have a really hard time remembering where they first saw you, especially
[00:32:11] Josh: when it's multitouch.
[00:32:12] Right? Totally. It's just like, was it the thing that I just clicked through? Is it the first thing Right, you? Yeah.
[00:32:17] Jess: And so it's like, do you, do you need that? Or would that be better spent on a qualifying question?
[00:32:23] Josh: Yeah. Yeah. You
[00:32:24] Jess: only get so many answers. Yeah. From somebody filling out that form. Yeah. Make it count.
[00:32:28] Josh: Here's, okay, so here's the question then, right? There's like two different types of CEOs. There's like the, just like fully blindly trust marketing. It's an investment. Yep. We have to make, I don't even need to see that, that answer on the form because I know ultimately everything we're doing works out.
[00:32:43] Then there's the ones that like, I need it 'cause I don't trust it. Yeah. Um. For folks like me that believe in it, trust it. I don't need to see the attribution. Do you still think that you need to put it there? Like are like, is a marketer in constant fear of like, at some point I'm gonna have to justify this work, [00:33:00] or I might report to somebody else someday.
[00:33:01] Or, or, I need it for my own purposes.
[00:33:04] Jess: That's what it is. Yeah. I wanna know.
[00:33:05] Josh: Mm-hmm. Right.
[00:33:06] Jess: Yeah. I wanna know that what I've asked you to invest in is actually doing well. Yeah. And. What does that mean to me? I kind of need to figure that out. What are the things that I feel are important to be able to share with you?
[00:33:17] To be like, it's doing good. Yeah. Like we can't pinpoint it. We're not gonna be able to say like, it won us this deal. Yeah. But hey, we've heard it in the last month. Mentioned on a sales call like five times. Yeah. That's pretty cool. Yeah. Like that is a really big signal to me. Yeah. So. I think it's more of like a good marketer is going to want to have that information Yeah.
[00:33:36] For themselves to be able to make you feel their boss, their CEO. Yeah. Great. About the trust and the investment that they have made.
[00:33:43] Josh: Yes, yes. I think we have another episode about this planned. Yeah. About like swag and stuff, but there's. Copy on the back of, um, this card game that we had built. Yes. Uh, and it's this like big, like the top of the copy's, like fine.
[00:33:57] It's like, oh, like this is for you as a [00:34:00] marketer. We built this for you. And then at the very bottom it's like, if this converts into a demo, text our CEO, here's his number. Like, tell him that the card game sent you. Yeah. Yeah. I just need that goddamn attribution. It's the, it's the dopamine. We
[00:34:12] Jess: need that boost.
[00:34:14] Josh: Speaking of dopamine, we have a channel internally where we basically share like. Not just marketing wins, but like overall love for the company. Yes. Those things I think do a great job in helping a marketer, uh, like anecdotally. Totally. Like show the proof in what they're doing. Yeah. Would recommend
[00:34:30] Jess: I would too.
[00:34:31] 10 outta 10. Because the things that most likely show up in there are, you guys are doing something really different. Yes. It's not. Straight attribution. Yeah. It is really floaty, kind of intangible love for the brand. Yes. And that's really important for leadership to see because that you cannot measure.
[00:34:48] Exactly.
[00:34:49] Josh: Yeah. And
[00:34:49] Jess: so to be able to see, that's really the only way anecdotally. Yeah. To see it.
[00:34:53] Josh: Yeah. There's your tactical takeaway. There it is. Put a marketing love channel in Slack.
[00:34:57] Jess: There you go. Love
[00:34:58] Josh: it. Jess, this was a, I liked [00:35:00] this one. This was good.
[00:35:01] Jess: It was, I mean, this meeting could have been a podcast.
[00:35:04] Josh: It was
[00:35:06] Jess: this meeting could have been a podcast as a vector. Production Vector is a contact based marketing tool that reveals your best buyers on and off your site, and lets you target them with plays tailored to their exact spot in the funnel. Our site de anonymization tool is free forever. Go give it a whirl@vector.co.
[00:35:24] See you next time.